Greece

[rocktron]

I don't think that the result of their General Election solves anything financially.

They cannot pay back the huge bail-out funds in the short, or long term. They were given a second bailout and nothing has changed. They still need more money.

The repayment terms would have to be renegotiated. My biggest fear for the rest of the Eurozone countries is that the debt will have to be written off. There is no way Greece would be able to pay it back, no matter what austerity programme they follow.

On a side issue, Turkey was refused entry to the EEC, and they are prospering. Perhaps there is a lesson for Greece there......and the UK!!!

[Vim Fuego]

the thing that's struck me about this whole affair is how good this has been for journo's. There must be a tonne of them out there. getting a tan all on the exe's. Bet they're glad it's not belgium that's gone tits up.

[stickyfiddle]

The debt has to be written off one way or another. Greece has no ability to pay unless it leaves the euro, then its own new currency overtakes the euro vastly, which simply won't happen.

Either way the Euro is screwed. I really wish the people in charge would see that and bite the bullet. Sadly, that's just not going to happen as they're all incapable of admitting defeat

[frankus]

the thing is with european alliances is that they fail and from the ashes a better one comes along... look at the League of Nations, now the UN.

[musophilr]

the thing is with european alliances is that they fail and from the ashes a better one comes along... look at the League of Nations, now the UN.

Does that mean we await the arrival of the Super-Euro (or the ÜberEuro) ?


I just wish the politicians would go back to recognising the value of free trade and cultural exchange without insisting on political, legal, and financial integration. The former works, the latter doesn't, and the sooner they accept it the better. Otherwise it's like giving a cancer patient more chemotherapy because the previous dose didn't work.

[frankus]

Does that mean we await the arrival of the Super-Euro (or the ÜberEuro) ?

No it means people can't get it right first time, it requires mistakes and disputes and colpase for anything worthwhile - if the answer was that obvious it would have been done that way first time. At this point it's really easy to apply hindsight or even say I told you so for some... but we are human; individually great, stupid in any large number - at best we learn from our mistakes, when we're not being scolded or persecuted.

I just wish the politicians would go back to recognising the value of free trade and cultural exchange without insisting on political, legal, and financial integration.

The Germans are still pining for a federation with them at the centre, the currency went from being bullets to coins.

The former works, the latter doesn't, and the sooner they accept it the better. Otherwise it's like giving a cancer patient more chemotherapy because the previous dose didn't work.

There's a great description of lateral thinking that describes looking for pirate treasure on a beach - one team dig where the map says to the depth the map says and finds nothing, so keeps on digging down... another team figures the depth might be right but not the coordinates so digs lots of shallower holes.

Combine that with Eric Bernes description of 'scripts' (Jung's the ego) - put anyone on a stage in front of 1000 people give them the worlds worst script (so bad they're guaranteed to be more entertaining if they ad-lib) and almost everyone will doggedly stick to the script... why? because they know what will happen (no matter how bad) if they do.

Most people will take certainty over any other option every time. Apply the notion that a group of people is the sum of all it's member's ignorance and insecuritiesand you're guaranteed predictably bad results.

[evilmags]

Just back from Spain and the damage being caused by the Euro is palpable. I drove on one of the fancy new toll roads out of Madrid (The R4) and in 65kms I saw three other cars. 5 Years ago at that time of day I'd have been in a traffic jam.

[Axe_meister]

Now the thing with all this dept is it really real?

So if the dept was written off and the money was printed and given back to those
who lent the money in the first place (so the balance sheet looks like its zero).
Would we be any the wiser (especially if you kept it quiet).

Inflation I hear you say, but is inflation not just a artificial decrease in value of a currency?
So if inflation when up by say 100% adding a zero onto the end of every price, but then to
save cost of printing money you just lashed the new zero of the note (as they did in Italy a few times).

Has it not come to the point where money is now really artificial and has no real correlation to the value of
work and materials? (just a negative or positive number on a computer)

Are banks themselves not just printing money based on a potential future balance sheet, i.e. they bet that commodities are going to be worth xyz in 10 years so they put that down as their current value of cash?

If we slashed the debt, or refinanced at 0% interest the people of Greece would be relieved, confidence in the market will go up,they can get back to work and start paying taxes again (the last few years being a hard lesson in not overspending).

I.e. there must be a better way, people still want to buy stuff and people still want to work nothing has really changed on that front. What if the banks never actually went bust they just artificially kept adding money to the pot, we'd be none the wiser and we wouldn't be in a massive recession.

[Fretwired]

Now the thing with all this dept is it really real?

So if the dept was written off and the money was printed and given back to those
who lent the money in the first place (so the balance sheet looks like its zero).
Would we be any the wiser (especially if you kept it quiet).

Inflation I hear you say, but is inflation not just a artificial decrease in value of a currency?
So if inflation when up by say 100% adding a zero onto the end of every price, but then to
save cost of printing money you just lashed the new zero of the note (as they did in Italy a few times).

Has it not come to the point where money is now really artificial and has no real correlation to the value of
work and materials? (just a negative or positive number on a computer)

Are banks themselves not just printing money based on a potential future balance sheet, i.e. they bet that commodities are going to be worth xyz in 10 years so they put that down as their current value of cash?

If we slashed the debt, or refinanced at 0% interest the people of Greece would be relieved, confidence in the market will go up,they can get back to work and start paying taxes again (the last few years being a hard lesson in not overspending).

I.e. there must be a better way, people still want to buy stuff and people still want to work nothing has really changed on that front. What if the banks never actually went bust they just artificially kept adding money to the pot, we'd be none the wiser and we wouldn't be in a massive recession.

Can you spot the flaw in your argument ...

It's like the fall of Rome .. which was far more to do with an economic and monetary collapse in the west that led to hordes of angry Germans burning everything. If the EU's not fixed the angry Germans could be back ..

Time for the UK to leave the party before the trouble really starts ..

[jalapeno]

Can you spot the flaw in your argument ...

It's like the fall of Rome .. which was far more to do with an economic and monetary collapse in the west that led to hordes of angry Germans burning everything. If the EU's not fixed the angry Germans could be back ..

Time for the UK to leave the party before the trouble really starts ..

I think it's really worrying, the social unrest from the Euro is similar social conditions to the 1930s, I think it's far more serious than the politicians are taking it.