How important is notation to the guitarist?

[Sir Axeman]

Age old debate! But be nice to hear the views of guitarists on this matter!

My stance is this..

Notation is undeniably superior because it has more detail in it ie note values/rests, rhythms etc but comes at a cost of being much more difficult to read. I can read...slowly! Not something I'd call my greatest skill. But I can read the notes and slowly work through something. But i'd probs get the job done quicker just using my ears in most cases. Its how I roll!

Now consider the beginning guitar noob....what would you consider the best approach to teaching them? I ask as a teacher myself!!

Start them off on notation, get them playing tunes from the get go and get them enjoying their instrument and feeling like they can do it? Or..start them off on music notation and avoid tab and have them read the most basic of tunes that are so basic they barely resmble a tune at all. Here I fear there is great risk of losing them early! Hence its not my stance on the matter!

Having taught privatley for my bread n butter since late 2004 and now since last year doing an increasing amount of school hours the local music service is about to have a debate/discussion on this very matter!! Hence this thread!!

Now, tab being what it is is SIMPLE to read and a young kid can learn to read it in minutes. They can (i've done it LOADS of times) play simple melodies like the theme tune to Harry Potter, Chasing Cars etc. And get a smile on their faces! Lets take the Harry Potter theme tune though - to read this in notation 6/8 time with a few chromatics and ledger lined dots thrown in means effectively its no beginners tune if you go the notation route...in fact I'm told its grade 3 standard for notation reading. So...do you not teach such simple tunes that a beginner can play them until they're sufficient in their ability to read it or not?? Your views?


Tab - very often lacks the detail of notation, this is unquestionable! (but not always!! Sometimes if its a consistent rhythm you can put the ryhthmic count under the tab ie Chasing Cars has a consistent quaver rhythm of 1+2+3+4+

But another argument (pro notation) which I can see holding weight is if you start of on the tab route...going back to notation later on is a hard slog becuase they've already got past playing those painfully simple 'tunes' that really are no more than an excercise in reading the dots. I've got this book Guitarist Way Book 1, and another called Guitar Method Book 1 - both are notation only...not tabs. many of those tunes in those books are what i've mentioned above - barely a tune at all. But learning notation you have to learn from the very beginning and the most simple of rhythms, notes etc. So its not difficult to see how there are generally 2 camps on this matter! Pro Notation/anti Tab and the rest of us!

So, do you read notation? If so to what level? Do you find yourself using it much or do you generally use tabs/chord charts + ears?

Notation...his its flaws to! Fingering of notes and what position they are to be played on the guitar neck ie what strings you would play.....

ie open top E string
vs 5th fret B string E note
vs 9th Fret G String E note
vs 14th Fret D string E note
vs 19th Fret A E note

all these E notes have the same pitch but they don't all sound the same! The sound or more acurately the tonality of those notes is different due to thickness and playing length of string. So notation would still get you the correct tune out...but not necessarily in the right place...you'd have to consult the original if you wanted to be correct on this one! How do you notate a dive bomb in notation or a pinch harmonic? or a pick scrape? Of course these aren't really relevant to a beginner but you get the jist of my point?

Notation was devised when there was no recording media that we all take for granted nowdays. No CDs, Tapes, DVDs etc back in those days! Even TAB is ancient! Adopted by guitarists but not originally devised specifically for the guitar.

Who these days sets out to learn a tune or song that they've never heard before and don't already know what it sounds like? Very few I'd suggest? But for those that do then notation is really the only way! But i'd suggest over 90% of guitarists in the 'real world' get by perfectly fine without it. Again - be great to hear your views on this!! There surely will be contrasting views here. But I reckon outside of the classical guitar most (probs over 90%) of guitarist dont read much if at all when it comes to notation.

I'd suggest that learning both IS really err..the best of both worlds but specifically for a young child setting out to learn the guitar should they (in your view) be setting out from the get go reading notation or what?

Some interesting articles on the debate....

http://www.learnandmaster.com/guitar...ndard-notation

[Danny1969]

I can remember learning Apache from notation at school. There wasn't any tab back then but we didn't need it. At music lesson we learn where every note on the guitar was, same as the keys people and recorder girls learn where their notes were. Then we used the "Every good boy deserves footcall" or whatever it was to read the notation. What finger on what string and the actual voicing was decided by us.
And here lies the problem these days ..... a lot of players don't know what notes they are playing or where they are ..... cos the tab just said 14th fret on the G string ..... they don't know it's an "A" ..... it's just G\14 to them. Tell them to ghost your run in thirds, they don't know what your talking about and need it tabbed out!! These are basic skills every guitarist should have.
So if nothing else at least make sure your students know where every note is on every string .... that would be a start

[Lixarto]

I'm not a guitar teacher, so I suspect my input to this thread will be tangential at best.

I hardly ever play other people's songs, so I have no real need of notation.

Having said that, I can read well enough to learn stuff (I'm thinking of classical stuff here - rock stuff, when I do learn it, I'll either listen to the record, or look at a chord sheet and build it up from there).

Works for me, but probably wouldn't for the average learner / chap in a cover/tribute band that needs everything note for note.

[thereformant]

I can remember learning Apache from notation at school. There wasn't any tab back then but we didn't need it. At music lesson we learn where every note on the guitar was, same as the keys people and recorder girls learn where their notes were. Then we used the "Every good boy deserves footcall" or whatever it was to read the notation. What finger on what string and the actual voicing was decided by us.
And here lies the problem these days ..... a lot of players don't know what notes they are playing or where they are ..... cos the tab just said 14th fret on the G string ..... they don't know it's an "A" ..... it's just G\14 to them. Tell them to ghost your run in thirds, they don't know what your talking about and need it tabbed out!! These are basic skills every guitarist should have.
So if nothing else at least make sure your students know where every note is on every string .... that would be a start

I dunno, I mean for contemporary guitar you cant really "learn where the notes are" because non-standard tuning are so common. I also think rock guitar in particular relies a lot on things that arent expressible in notation like palm muting etc. I've managed to get by reasonably without being able to sight read. I'm sure it is a useful skill to have but so far haven't been inclined to invest the effort in it.

[octatonic]

Notation is very helpful if working with other people in an ensemble format.

Sure for a 4 piece band you don't need it but if you have 12 people standing in a room and everyone can read then it is much faster than explaining what to do.
Most guitarists can't read though- that is obvious.

I can read but I learned it late- it was a bit of a mammoth effort actually.
Cold sight-reading isn't my forte but I get by and what I can't read in the moment I can at least fake convincingly.

[Sir Axeman]

I learned all the notes on the fretboard many years ago. My own learning started off with a notation book called "A Tune A Day" which I still have somewhere. It was dire in terms of musical enjoyment I can remember that! Oh When The Saints...Skip To My Lou...Twinkle Twinkle, you get the picture? Here is my biggest problem...the tunes need to be this basic for budding readers to "get it" and tab is a short cut to playing much more complex things quickerer! That in my mind is without doubt! But Danny your point is TOTALLY right! I've played in bands with lots of different guitarists over the years and many of them are pretty clueless from a music theory point of view! Some though have been pretty good. Many of the most famous "rock" or pop type guitarists(...and even Jazz!!) don't read a single crotchet! And clearly have managed fine. That Jimi bloke would've been stuffed if they'd had him in the pit playing from a score to "Stars In Their Eyes" or whatever equivilent there was back in his day!

I certainly do not advocate learning tabs and no theory behind it. But I do think just very early on with young kids (or big kid ie adults) that getting them out of the start blocks and off onto a flyer is a good way to go. Reckon i'd be out of work fast if I tried to start some teenage lad on notation "today we're going to do Skip To My Lou" when he comes to me wanting to learn Guns n Roses or Metallica!! I jest of course but I kid you not this happens!! I've taught one youngster that had 2yrs of school lessons learning nursery rhymes and was being bored senseless by his school guitar teacher when the music he was being taught had ZERO interest to him. Can of worms?

[Sir Axeman]

An extract from an article I copy n pasted into Word ages ago, from somewhere on the net (tried searching for it n cant find it hence no linky)..........


Read Music!
To learn how to read music is very easy. If you look at a guitar player reading through music and then you get the music sheet in front of you, you will probably say "..no way I can read these hieroglyphics !!". There is a clear cut difference between sight reading at tempo and simply reading. The second one will eventually lead you to the first and for practical purposes all you want is to be able to decipher those symbols which are really few and really straightforward.
I blame teachers both in schools and music schools for the bad reputation generally associated with music notation. The problem there is that most teachers impose reading simultaneously with guitar learning as soon as class 1 starts. That is as if we tried to teach a baby how to read before he can say mom...You first get a student up to a decent playing level and once the motivation (KEY ELEMENT) and self esteem are built up, you introduce music symbols and their interpretation. The student should get to a point where he wants to read music.
He (the student) approached you (a guitar teacher) to learn how to play guitar and not to be tortured with theoretical jargon. Having said that and hoping you still have a little interest in how to read music, I will show you a very simple process that works and that can evolve into whatever level you are willing to. I divide reading music into stages and whatever stage one learns, I guarantee music reading proficiency.
The first stage in reading music is the one where you know the tune (I mean you heard it and are familiar with it) and want to play it having the music sheet in front of you.
In your life as a musician, you will seldom want to learn a piece you never heard before unless you are preparing for a competition where a new work is being commissioned for the competitors to première.

[Danny1969]

Good point about the tuning but you naturally compensate for those to a certain extent. If I'm in drop D I know the Root G of a G power chord is now on the 5th fret of the E string rather than the third. Stuff like that is easy enough to do on the fly. I don't read music like a classical player but I am constantly thinking in notes rather than frets.

Here's an example, I'm in a Thin Lizzy tribute band. There's a lot of songs with harmony guitar parts, normall just basic minor or major thirds. If you know one part you should be able to play the other in thirds without hitting a load of bum notes while working it out .... it's just knowing where the notes are and basic maths. I'm not sure it would be possible to play a harmony minor 3rd C to my A if the guy didn't know where a C was if you see what I mean. I mean he could find it by ear but he should know where it is IMHO

Note I'm not knocking people who just play by ear, I'm a huge fan of that approach. But if kids are gonna get taught something it should be where the notes are

[nickp]

I'm a rubbish sight reader - grade 3/4 at best. I can play classical stuff grade 8+. I am playing rock and learning new fingersyle acoustic tunes - and there isn't any need to read notation - but I do need to know where all the notes are (I'm learning!) and how to get around the fingerboard (caged system).

as for classical - i played for a while in an ensemble and was hugely hampered by my poor reading - but ensemble playing is a lot of fun. and learning a new classical piece is so much more painful due to my poor sight reading.

so my view is learn sight reading properly straight away by practising it steadily over a longish period so you can move between guitar playing "worlds" and not struggle.

But don't neglect the underlying pictorial approach used more in the rock world to become more free up the neck - my classical teacher is struggling (struggling is a relative term here as her playing is superb) with this now as her playing is moving out to Brasilian, World music and Jazzy stuff where improvisation and chord substitution is coming into play.

IMHO. etc.

Nick

[musophilr]

1. Why is it only guitarists who think they don't need to read proper music? Why are they the special case?
2. We do young learners a disservice by giving them tab, even alongside the proper notation. Trinity tried it with the lower grades of classical tuition a few years ago, then IIRC they stopped it because they found that by the time the kids got to grade 3 they still couldn't read!
3. Rockschool has found symbols to indicate a lot of the commonly used electric guitar articulations that traditional notation has until now not needed. That's an example of a notation which is basically sound, but can be adapted for use on an instrument that didn't exist when the notation first evolved.
4. The "problem" of alternative tunings is not a fault in the notation. If an alternative tuning is required to execute a piece of music, the pitch and timing of the notes doesn't change, only the fingering. String numbers, finger numbers, and position numbers are sufficient to convey such information so long as the tuning is specified at the top of the piece.