Speaker Change Advice for Orange PPC212

[kickdown]

Got an Orange PPC212 closed back cab loaded with the original V30s. It saounds pretty good, loads of low end thump and tightness, yet at the same time, a little muddy. I run it with an Orange TH30 head, which has a 'shape' tone control as opposed to the traditional Bass, Middle, Treble setup....which i really like, but obviously has limitations to the degree of specific tone adjustment.

So...

Id like to change out one of the V30s in the cab, for something brighter, and see how that affects the sound of my setup, but im have no knowledge of what speakers may lend themselves to my quandary !! So, what do you knowledgeable folk recommend, that may satisfy my need for a little more brightness and openess to my sound.

As a side note, the PPC212 is a 120w cab and 16ohm's, so what ohm'age and wattage would each speaker need to be, sorry for the probably basic/novice questions.

Thanks for any help or advice.

Cheers

Dave

[ICBM]

The speakers are 60W, 8 ohms each, wired in series. The replacement needs to be 8 ohms as well.

The power handling of a two-speaker cabinet is twice that of the lower-rated speaker, not the sum of the two. So using a speaker of less than 60W will reduce the total power rating, but using one of greater than 60W will not increase it. How much you need depends on the power output of the amp - the cabinet needs to be able to handle at least this much, and preferably at least about 50% more to be really safe if you're going to turn it up a long way.

Some speaker combinations are already tried and tested, and known to sound good - unless you want to experiment, I'd stick to one of these (all Celestions):

G12H-30. Very popular, but it reduces the total power handling to only 60W, so if your amp is more powerful than this, you can't use it. I don't really like it for this reason - it doesn't make the best use of the individual speaker power ratings, or tones either... the V30 likes to be pushed hard (which it now can't be) and the H30 doesn't so much (but it now will be). On the other hand, if the amp is less than about 40W it makes no practical difference.

Classic Lead 80 - for some reason this speaker is very overlooked. It sounds similar to a slightly tighter, more modern G12H-30, but with 80W power handling which is perfect to go with the V30 - the total cab rating is back to 120W, but the V30 can now be driven really hard without overloading the CL80. Like the H30 it has a lot more deep bass, clearer mids and brighter top-end than the V30.

Gold - fantastic, but very expensive. It's rated at 50W so the cab rating is now 100W, which is enough for all but full 100W amps that you're going to crank right up. It sounds something like an Alnico Blue crossed with a V30 - it's chunky like the V30, but brighter at the top end and without the big mid spike, and has the 'chimey' clean tone of the Blue.

G12T-75 - sounds like an odd choice because it's one of Celestion's cheaper models and doesn't sound that great on its own, but it works very well with the V30 - the hollow, scooped and bright tone goes well with the V30's mid peak without dominating the mix, because it's less sensitive (ie slightly less loud). It also has a similar power rating to the V30, but in the right direction, so the V30 gets pushed to its limit first, and the total cab rating is still 120W.

Greenback... I'd avoid this, even though you see it used sometimes. The sensitivity is the same as the 75, but the tone is much more similar to the V30, so it ends up just sounding too quiet and makes the cab sound sound unbalanced or 'skewed' to one side, to me. It also produces a 50W total rating, which is *less* than the V30 alone, which strikes me as slightly pointless.

I'd also probably avoid mixing makes. For whatever reason I'm not totally sure, but I've never heard a mixed-brand pair that I thought really worked.

[kickdown]

The speakers are 60W, 8 ohms each, wired in series. The replacement needs to be 8 ohms as well.

The power handling of a two-speaker cabinet is twice that of the lower-rated speaker, not the sum of the two. So using a speaker of less than 60W will reduce the total power rating, but using one of greater than 60W will not increase it. How much you need depends on the power output of the amp - the cabinet needs to be able to handle at least this much, and preferably at least about 50% more to be really safe if you're going to turn it up a long way.

Some speaker combinations are already tried and tested, and known to sound good - unless you want to experiment, I'd stick to one of these (all Celestions):

G12H-30. Very popular, but it reduces the total power handling to only 60W, so if your amp is more powerful than this, you can't use it. I don't really like it for this reason - it doesn't make the best use of the individual speaker power ratings, or tones either... the V30 likes to be pushed hard (which it now can't be) and the H30 doesn't so much (but it now will be). On the other hand, if the amp is less than about 40W it makes no practical difference.

Classic Lead 80 - for some reason this speaker is very overlooked. It sounds similar to a slightly tighter, more modern G12H-30, but with 80W power handling which is perfect to go with the V30 - the total cab rating is back to 120W, but the V30 can now be driven really hard without overloading the CL80. Like the H30 it has a lot more deep bass, clearer mids and brighter top-end than the V30.

Gold - fantastic, but very expensive. It's rated at 50W so the cab rating is now 100W, which is enough for all but full 100W amps that you're going to crank right up. It sounds something like an Alnico Blue crossed with a V30 - it's chunky like the V30, but brighter at the top end and without the big mid spike, and has the 'chimey' clean tone of the Blue.

G12T-75 - sounds like an odd choice because it's one of Celestion's cheaper models and doesn't sound that great on its own, but it works very well with the V30 - the hollow, scooped and bright tone goes well with the V30's mid peak without dominating the mix, because it's less sensitive (ie slightly less loud). It also has a similar power rating to the V30, but in the right direction, so the V30 gets pushed to its limit first, and the total cab rating is still 120W.

Greenback... I'd avoid this, even though you see it used sometimes. The sensitivity is the same as the 75, but the tone is much more similar to the V30, so it ends up just sounding too quiet and makes the cab sound sound unbalanced or 'skewed' to one side, to me. It also produces a 50W total rating, which is *less* than the V30 alone, which strikes me as slightly pointless.

I'd also probably avoid mixing makes. For whatever reason I'm not totally sure, but I've never heard a mixed-brand pair that I thought really worked.

You sir are a legend, thank you

I was hoping you'd reply John, but have to admit, i was half expecting a response containing the phrase 'i told you so' with regards to the 'shape' control that Orange has started using I find it has a great range of tones, but sadly, in a situation like this where i'm happy with the overall tone, just want to add a bit of top....it fails.

The TH30 is only 30watts, so i'm not overly worried about lower the handling capacity of the cab if the speaker choice has this affect.

Looking at the above speakers you've mentioned, it looks to be a choice between either the Classic Lead 80 or the G12T-75, either of which sound ideal for what i'm after.

So....i guess the next question is, wheres the best place to purchase one from in 8ohms ?

Cheers

Dave

[cosmiccarrot]

Greenback... the tone is much more similar to the V30

I totally disagree, in fact I don't think I've heard anyone compare a G12m T1221 to a V30 ???

[ICBM]

I totally disagree, in fact I don't think I've heard anyone compare a G12m T1221 to a V30 ???

They are both mid-humped, dirty-sounding speakers. Yes, they sound different - but not different enough that they work well together, since they're both still trying to do the same job and what you hear most is the difference in sensitivity. Mixing works better when the speakers are different enough to complement each other by each doing something that the other doesn't. (In my opinion.)

[Dave_Mc]

good writeup there by icbm- I'm not sure i'd say the classic lead sounds that close to a g12h30 if you're expecting it to sound exactly like a g12h30, though it probably does if you consider that the g12h30 is often described as being midway between a v30 and a g12m, yet if you mix two of those speakers together you don't get anything that sounds like a g12h30. But looking at the overall vibe of the thing, it's quite accurate. if that makes sense (it did in my head).

I'd also say the tayden great brit (their g12h30-style speaker) sounded good with a v30- so sometimes mixing brands can work. But i'd agree that unless you know it will, it's probably safer not to (you won't do any harm, just it might not sound so good).

Only thing I'd say it- all those speakers he listed I'd have said would add bass to a v30 (EDIT: apart from a gold, I haven't tried that one). I like those combos because of that, but if you actually want less bass...

EDIT: ^ agreed, regarding mixing- I did think the v30 and g12m sounded good together in certain situations (I also didn't notice any volume problems, but then i was only trying them at low volumes), say if you needed a warmer/middier tone. But for most situations that combo was a bit honky.

[parker_knoll]

yeah, i could come in with a different view, because i also have an Orange PPC212 and I really don't like Celestions in it at all. I pretty much don't like Celestions full stop, so if you wanted i could come in with a load of other recommendations and make the whole thing more difficult

Basically it's a world of subjectivity and there's a lot of choice out there. If you can be bothered you can buy speakers second hand pretty cheaply and try a few.

I personally find most Celestions to have a scrapey top end I don't like, but others do, and when they have bass it's boomy and undefined. The Vintage 30s are actually better in that regard. You'll find Jensens to be bright on the whole but they make some really good speakers, and they are cheap. Eminences are also cheap.

In terms of power handling of the cab, if you're running a 30W head you do not need a 120W cab, you can afford to downgrade it, and if you don't play anywhere near the top of the dial you can go much lower in terms of cab power.

you'll probably also find the TH30 has a range of outputs (16 ohm, 8 ohm, 4 ohm are standard) so you are absolutely not constrained constrained to make it a 16 ohm cabinet. You could run an 8 ohm cabinet (two 16 ohm speakers in parallel) off the 8 ohm output perfectly well.

In my PPC212 I'm running a Weber 12F150B and a Fane Axiom. Not wanting to sound like a ponce, just saying.

[Bidley]

I recently put a CL80 in my 2x12 with a V30. Its sounds great, exactly what I needed as the V30s were just a touch too dark. I'd definitely recommend the CL80/V30 pairing, especially for Metal

[parker_knoll]

it's also worth noting that the big PPC212s are really bassy boxes. The Chinese ones have a smaller volume, but the British ones have the biggest internal volume of any 2x12 out there AFAIK so will be boomy. You could try playing with the back off or open for a bit to see if you actually prefer the sound of an open back.

[kickdown]

Thanks for all the feedback guys !!

Safe to say im completely lost now lol