Whingeing singers and loud drummers

[bertie]

[Caution: rant ]

I don't agree.

.

neither does mrs bert, in bucket loads, in fact she is happy to discuss, but says (to Fusion)please bring crash-helmet and something lessen the thickness of your skin

[Fusionista]

Had my first proper band rehearsal in nearly 10 yrs , I forgot how bloody loud drums and a harmonica are ,,,the answer if you can't hear yourself is not always turn up but turn the others down

It's difficult as the poster not to feel 'made wrong' by a lot of the respondents, but IanCorps sums up how I felt at the time.

Anyway - and it's worth repeating as so few people seem to read a thread all the way through - there are at least two good ideas which have come up to mitigate this problem (and it is a technical problem, not simply down to the ego of all guitarists).

1. (Last quoted by ICBM] Get the guitar amps up off the floor, even a 4x12" - and keep the bass cab tight down. That way you get a natural roll-off of the deep lows in the guitar sound and reinforcement of the ones in the bass, so the two sounds naturally separate in the mix and you don't need to heavily EQ them to fix it. Actually, using a full stack for guitar is a good idea... if you don't use the bottom cab!

2. [First quoted by Springworks] Set up in rehearsal like at a gig, with everyone's amps pointing in the same direction as the PA, and with the drummer against the wall the PA speakers are mounted on. It's much easier to get a good sound balance this way.

[fatherjack]

When I used to gig, (a) we weren't a particularly loud band anyway, and (b) I used a POD XT Live direct into the PA.

Yes, my Cornell Plexi 20 sounds much nicer, but in terms of overall band sound, the other way is so much simpler - no amp to lug about, and my sound sat properly in the mix, which is the whole point. We did a gig for a friend's party once, and the guy in charge of the venue told us beforehand 'Don't be too loud - we can't afford to have complaints from the neighbours.' - it was no problem for us - if we'd have needed to, we could just have turned the PA down a bit.

[uncle_psychosis]

Yes, I totally agree - but I had to raise the point in case anyone has the idea that a cranked 100W guitar amp is *always* too loud, which seemed to be the implication/assumption on that thread. (And which seems to be part of current "popular wisdom" as well.) It isn't always with a loud band. In fact, a bassist with a cranked SVT or similar can also be a major problem, particularly because the cabs have a very long throw so the bassist often doesn't realise just how loud he is out in the room, from the stage.

As always, it's the sound out front that matters, first and most importantly. Second is the sound on stage if people can't hear the other players.

Amusingly, this is what I posted in that thread:

was just pointing out that its not fair (or just plain wrong) for us bassists to suggest that a guitarist should *never* turn up to a gig with a 100W stack because a "mic'd up 15W combo is more than enough...". I'd have no issue the guitarist in my band wanted to use two 100W stacks, so long as he kept the volume at a sensible level!

Just to reiterate: There is no such thing as inappropriate power, only inappropriate volume.



I think we're singing off the same hymn sheet

[GearAddict]

Well our bass player could level mountains. Most of the time all i can hear is bass. I am constantly struggling to hear my guitar.

[Fusionista]

Well our bass player could level mountains. Most of the time all i can hear is bass. I am constantly struggling to hear my guitar.

Maybe that's why the Who pioneered LOUD ?

[thereformant]

I play as a drummer and a guitarist and in both I think a lot of the issue is drums. I don't know if you've noticed but at low volumes it's much easier to separate different sound sources whereas at high volume it's much easier for a single source to dominate the mix. I don't know if this is just a perception thing or if there's a reason for it.

The problem is of course that drums have a certain minimum volume and unless you have fantastic technique the minimum volume tends to be related to the speed required (so it's way easier to play fast and loud than fast and quiet).

What I find is that this sets the minimum volume level past that threshold where its easy to distinguish different things and into mush territory.

I think practicing fully mic'ed and mixed would be great but we def cant afford a place big enough to justify it.

[ICBM]

I play as a drummer and a guitarist and in both I think a lot of the issue is drums. I don't know if you've noticed but at low volumes it's much easier to separate different sound sources whereas at high volume it's much easier for a single source to dominate the mix. I don't know if this is just a perception thing or if there's a reason for it.

I've noticed that too - I think it's to do with the way the ear (or brain) compresses sound at higher volumes. Low volumes, no ear compression, everything is easy to distinguish whether relatively louder or quieter. High volume, lots of ear compression, and the loudest sound squashes out everything below it, until something else becomes just louder and then that becomes the 'squasher'. Repeat as everyone in turn can't hear themselves and turns up until they become the loudest thing, and that's the classic volume war.

Frequency separation is the other big issue. If you do it right so no two instruments are fighting over the same frequency, there can be a fair difference in volume level and still hear both/all instruments. Do it wrong and the loudest instrument in any frequency band renders the others more or less inaudible. That's why (but not the only example of it) it's a good idea to get the guitar amps up off the floor.

I tend to think of a band mix as being a frequency graph like a fruit and jelly trifle - the top needs to be level, even though the layers in the middle aren't - but they have to fit into each other to produce the level top. So (for example) you can have the bass very scooped with a lot of low-end and some top, the rhythm guitar fits into that scoop, but is itself scooped as well (just starting higher and ending lower, still with the mids taken down) and the lead guitar pure mid so it fits into the hollow in that and makes the top level. The drums are scattered over the entire frequency band but only in little bursts, so they're like the fruit on the top. And the vocals are like the cream - you think they're the best bit at first but after a while they make you sick... er no, they're the bit you want to taste separately from the rest of mix so they need to sit just on top of the instruments and the fruit and not be blended into the bowl.

If that makes sense . Don't ask me what happens if you put too much sherry in.

[Fusionista]

Frequency separation is the other big issue. If you do it right so no two instruments are fighting over the same frequency, there can be a fair difference in volume level and still hear both/all instruments. ...the lead guitar pure mid so it fits into the hollow in that as well.... And the vocals are like the cream

Vocals and lead guitar are IMHO in the same territory.

[ICBM]

Vocals and lead guitar are IMHO in the same territory.

A little, yes (although the vocals usually go a little higher into the upper mids) - which is why they don't play very 'big' parts at the same time - but in a band where the lead guitarist is constantly playing fills and other bits (try stopping them, usually! ) it's important to make sure the guitar is part of the instrumental mix and the vocal still sits on top. Most non-musicians - ie the vast majority of the audience - want to hear the vocals.

Number one complaint at gigs - above even "guitar was too loud" - "couldn't hear the vocals".