^ but using that logic a 5 watt amp will hardly drive any speaker, surely? as ICBM said.
Not to mention, you're massively narrowing down your speaker choices if you're adamant you want low wattage- I'd rather use a speaker which is suitable for the tone I want even if, theoretically, I'm not driving it hard enough. and even the fact that "you're not driving it hard enough" is contentious, if you ask me- my vht special 6 sounds awesome into my 2x12 with eminence red white and blues (120W rated) and screamin eagle (50 watt rated). It sounds better into those two speakers than into plenty of lower wattage speakers (IMO). EDIT: actually, that reminds me- for a laugh i ran it into my little jensen 6" mod in my fame tube 5, which is rated at 15 watts... needless to say, it didn't sound anywhere near as good (unless you were trying to keep the volume way down) with that speaker as with the much-higher-rated 12s. Obviously that's an extreme example, but it still shows that something "better" run below its ideal parameters often trumps something "worse" run closer to its ideal parameters.
it's a bit like the "don't buy a high wattage amp, you can't crank it" argument- if you can't crank the higher wattage amp you probably can't crank the lower wattage one either, and odds are the lower wattage one isn't aimed at the same tones as the higher wattage one. The whole argument kinda falls apart under close scrutiny. same goes for speakers.
agreed.Originally Posted by ICBM
the bigger problem is that the VJ is fairly cheap- whether it's worth forking out for a good 2x12 with decent speakers is the concern. But it'll certainly drive a 2x12" absolutely fine.
Last edited by Dave_Mc; 6th January 2013 at 11:12 PM.
It really depends on your goal. In general I think volume matters more than speaker or poweramp break up for the tones I like. I like modern punchy high gain tones, and speaker/poweramp break up is not what I'm interested in. I do however believe good 'modern' tone can come from volume.
When recording with 4x12s there does come a point where you've got it loud enough for the cab to 'thump' and start becoming a proper part of the sound, and this is way below the speaker break up threshold on most cabs. That is when my cabs sound their best for the tones I like, IMO.
Last edited by guitarfishbay; 6th January 2013 at 11:31 PM.
nope, great tone is in the ear of the beholder. It may be one, both or neither of the above.
Some actually dislike speaker breakup (which is what I assume you're on about)
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^ + ^^ good points (both of you)
Presuming that you're talking about speaker breakup in the highlighted bit...you won't get a 5W amp to push any modern guitar speaker into breakup.
There are also many reasons for multiple speakers in a given cabinet when recording - not least using mismatched pairs of speakers, and especially when using a mic in the rear of the cabinet.
I love the way that you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of good tone here...were that to be the case, I'd hope that you'd be a little more open-minded
Disagree on most counts:
Speakers need to work, but a 5W amp will work a typical guitar speaker more than hard enough, 'tone' or overdrive comes from the amp/valves very little if any overdrive comes from the speaker, i.e. you can put a very loud clean signal in to a guitar cab and it will come out clean, the speakers aren't producing the overdrive except in extreme cases
a 12" speaker will produce more bass than a 10" in most cases
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I missed that bit, but you're right as well. 12s usually go lower *and* sometimes higher than 10s. A typical 12 will definitely produce more bass than a typical 10, other factors being similar. The HF response is almost nothing to do with the cone diameter but mostly the voice coil, and a 12 can be brighter than a 10. Compare a G12H-30 to a G10 Vintage for example - the G12H is much deeper-sounding, *less* mid-heavy, and brighter than the G10. (Yes, I know these are fairly specific examples, but it illustrates the point.)a 12" speaker will produce more bass than a 10" in most cases
I do agree that the enclosure is an important part of it - which is why you can have 10"-speaker bass cabs - but not in a standard guitar cab design which is little more than a box.
"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand" - Homer Simpson
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+1.
"Speaker overdrive" is mostly mythical.
Also, some speakers have an extremely linear response to power input, by which I mean that they still sound the same when barely tickled, despite high power ratings.
The Celestion G12T-100 is one such, that sounds great with a 1W amp at bedroom levels, for instance.
Personally, I always recommend the biggest cab you've got physical space for, regardless of volume. To me, they just sound better.
^ yeah and conversely some speakers have a slightly dirty/crunchy/fizzy edge to them even at low volumes.
i mean... people like weber offer different versions of the same speaker with different breakup characteristics (in the same wattage). if the breakup were only dependent on how much the speaker were being pushed that wouldn't be possible (presumably).
Last edited by Dave_Mc; 7th January 2013 at 06:20 PM.
Seems like I am not allowed an opinion herebut that's what this is, my opinion.
Couple of points though to all, speaker enclosures are extremely important, and a 10" can give a better bass response than a 12" if cab is designed well. My RCF310 is a classis example, far better bass response than the RCF312, which shocked me when demo'd, which is why I bought them. Speaker overdrive a myth ? Every speaker handles power differently, when you overdrive a speaker some go all flabby and lose distinction, some compress and add to the tone in a different way, some people like the JBL or EV speakers which seem to just reproduce what you put in. Luckily we all have different tastes. I like vintage amps and have been lucky enough to have owned quite a few. For some like Marshall they seem to be better with celestions but some fenders with stock oxfords/jensons or utah's can be improved (in some opinions)with Celestions or Eminence speakers. But all speakers behave differently when worked hard or "driven" and that is a big part of an amps tone. I used to use an old s/f bandmaster head, with stock fender speakers it was usable up to 5, when paired with an old 2x12 Marshall cab, it sounded awesome, even though speakers handled less power.
ICBM
I do agree that the enclosure is an important part of it - which is why you can have 10"-speaker bass cabs - but not in a standard guitar cab design which is little more than a box.
So 10" guitar cabs are not good, luckily SRV wasn't told or Roy Buchanan with their 4x10" and 2x10 amps!
I am not saying a 10 is better but as good, but its down to taste and what you want to do with it.
Digital scream, No one is setting themselves up as arbitrator of tone, but if speakers don't matter so much, why use celestions instead of fane, jensons or Alnico instead of ceramic or neodynium , it's because of their characteristics when "driven"not clean.
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