Should We Stay In The European Union

[Fretwired]

Just because people do vote with a certain mind-set doesn't mean that that mind-set has any relevance to the system that is in place. I think the issue isn't the nature of our government, but the government's willingness to educate people about the relevance of their vote if they are misunderstanding what they are doing.

But for many people their vote is worthless. What if you're a Labour supporter living in David Cameron's constituency? Your vote is worthless so you won't bother. The Tories got 36% of the vote and 307 seats. The Lib Dems got 23% of the vote, yet they only got 57 seats. UKIP got nearly 4% of the national vote [1.2 million votes] and no seats.

The system is broken - the Tories need 10% more of the vote than Labour to stand any chance of winning. As the polls sit it will be a Labour landslide, but very few of their MPs will be in the Midlands and southern England. So much for a government of national unity.

[holnrew]

The system is broken - the Tories need 10% more of the vote than Labour to stand any chance of winning. As the polls sit it will be a Labour landslide, but very few of their MPs will be in the Midlands and southern England. So much for a government of national unity.

But still the last Labour government increased the north south divide. Not as bad as the current lot mind you.

I'm massively jealous of Scotland having a way out of this shambles.

[Fretwired]

I'm massively jealous of Scotland having a way out of this shambles.

We could move 6 million Tory voters north of the border ... that should piss them off ...

And I'm not sure that Alex and his SNP pals are any better than the Cameron/Clegg double act down here. We are really scrapping the barrel quality wise with our politicians .... wait until Boris arrives. A speaking Mr Bean as PM .. can it get any worse?

[ianpdq]

We could move 6 million Tory voters north of the border ... that should piss them off ...

And I'm not sure that Alex and his SNP pals are any better than the Cameron/Clegg double act down here. We are really scrapping the barrel quality wise with our politicians .... wait until Boris arrives. A speaking Mr Bean as PM .. can it get any worse?

I love it we have a web site down here that is pissing off our local Tory Councillors http://www.quargo.co.uk/

[johnnyurq]

We could move 6 million Tory voters north of the border ... that should piss them off ...

And I'm not sure that Alex and his SNP pals are any better than the Cameron/Clegg double act down here. We are really scrapping the barrel quality wise with our politicians .... wait until Boris arrives. A speaking Mr Bean as PM .. can it get any worse?

Why would that give you pleasure?

Some of your posts to me on occassion seem to kind of trying to bait any Scots (maybe Mags) into a reaction and remember only a small number of Scots are in the slavering home rule eejits camp, but they will shout the loudest and give us a bad name.

Every country has folks like these who fall for all the FUD from both sides and spout off FUD and BS.

Most Scots are engaging intelligently with the debate and trying make a decision on the actual issues at hand.

For the record I reckon the Westminster FUD will trump all and the vote will be a no for independence. Just my opinion from the debates I have watched and information from reliable media outlets here, so that may change.

If I have missed the mark and it is merely humour/banter then my bad and apologies for reading too much into it.

In any case no self respecting Tory would be seen too far away from that there London and the SE of England, Scotland perish the thought.

MSP wise they are beginning to head towards being like their Westminster cousins but at the present are doing a pretty good job in difficult times.

As a general rule our MSP's are predominately still conviction politicians obviously with some exceptions.

Even the very much endagered as a species Tories here are very much of a different stripe to their Westminster kin.

My concern is if we get independence that our lot at Holyrood become clones of Westminister and then it may all have been for nought.

Back on topic Scotland and Scots on the whole are very pro a common market but agree the euro and other such silliness is a no no.

As Honda and many other companies stating that they will leave the UK plus Obama's administration have warned we (the UK) may not be worth the effort if not in Europe.

Add the euro FUD saying the UK may become a pariah if demanding more clawing back of powers and then we have both fun and games.

Re Boris his bumbling fool schtick is just a developed persona that and his nonsense from the Bullingdon club is of concern, BoJo, call me Dave and Gideon by rights should have criminal records for wrecking bars and eateries among other alledged nastiness.

But money and connections go a long way to resolving those kind of issues.

For me personally (not even a Tory voter) I would rather Dave than BoJo for the top job.

[Fretwired]

Why would that give you pleasure?

Some of your posts to me on occassion seem to kind of trying to bait any Scots (maybe Mags) into a reaction and remember only a small number of Scots are in the slavering home rule eejits camp, but they will shout the loudest and give us a bad name.

Every country has folks like these who fall for all the FUD from both sides and spout off FUD and BS.

Most Scots are engaging intelligently with the debate and trying make a decision on the actual issues at hand.

For the record I reckon the Westminster FUD will trump all and the vote will be a no for independence. Just my opinion from the debates I have watched and information from reliable media outlets here, so that may change.

If I have missed the mark and it is merely humour/banter then my bad and apologies for reading too much into it.

In any case no self respecting Tory would be seen too far away from that there London and the SE of England, Scotland perish the thought.

MSP wise they are beginning to head towards being like their Westminster cousins but at the present are doing a pretty good job in difficult times.

As a general rule our MSP's are predominately still conviction politicians obviously with some exceptions.

Even the very much endagered as a species Tories here are very much of a different stripe to their Westminster kin.

My concern is if we get independence that our lot at Holyrood become clones of Westminister and then it may all have been for nought.

Back on topic Scotland and Scots on the whole are very pro a common market but agree the euro and other such silliness is a no no.

As Honda and many other companies stating that they will leave the UK plus Obama's administration have warned we (the UK) may not be worth the effort if not in Europe.

Add the euro FUD saying the UK may become a pariah if demanding more clawing back of powers and then we have both fun and games.

Re Boris his bumbling fool schtick is just a developed persona that and his nonsense from the Bullingdon club is of concern, BoJo, call me Dave and Gideon by rights should have criminal records for wrecking bars and eateries among other alledged nastiness.

But money and connections go a long way to resolving those kind of issues.

For me personally (not even a Tory voter) I would rather Dave than BoJo for the top job.

You need to get a sense of humour. By the way I'm half Scottish, my wife's a Scot and I have loads of family up there ...

[islater]

Although I'm British, my family and I lived in number of different countries during my early childhood and I spent my school aged years in Scotland. I left the UK about 11.5 years ago and I currently live in Holland, just to give you an idea of the 'cultural' influences that may colour my opinions.

I am not Scottish but grew up amongst the Scots and many of my friends are ardent Scottish nationalists. On a sentimental level I do have sympathy for Scottish independence, however, I have never heard a reasonable economic argument that supports such a cause of action. Most of the time people seem to take one of two sides of the argument based on their underlying polical philosophy, with no intention of listening to the other side or changing their opinion, should they accidently overhear something contrary to their beliefs.

I mention this as it seems to be the same case with the argument regarding Europe, what it is, what it could and should be and Britain's status within it. The Dutch, and other Europeans, that I work and socialise with find the current debate in the UK very strange. They do not recognise the EU that the UK seems to think that it is part of, they do not understand why nobody is talking about what the EU actually is and what can be done to change it. Rather reminiscent of HSE and all of the supposed decisions that were blamed on this legislation that had no basis in fact.

I cannot think of anyone that I have talked to about this subject (other than people from the UK) that wants to simply pull out of the EU and go it alone. I am sure that they exist, I just haven't met them or discussed this subject with them. Most people feel that the EU administration/government is deeply flawed and needs serious reform; they want to talk about how to do this and how to make people engage more with the EU policiticians rather than throw a hissy fit and leave altogether. Despite having a turnout of approximately 75% in Dutch general elections they only had a 36% (ish) vote in the last EU ones, prompting many questions as to how they can effectively influence EU policy if they can't get their electorate involved. This may be an effect of having coalition politics for so long in Holland, so that rather than in a two party system of diametrically opposed views, with no room for negotiation between them, they expect to have multiple views expressed and to find a
consensus agreement that benefits the majority.

Personally speaking, I am in favour of the UK staying the EU as it makes my life easier and better. I do hope that Cameron's speech actually generates a proper discussion in the UK of what exactly the EU is, and that people get to make a decision on their future in relation to it based on a rational and reasoned debate. Sadly, I doubt this will happen because of the power monopolies that exist in the UK media and the fact that the conditions for Cameron's referendum are unlikely to actually happen. It pains me to acknowledge any semblance of competence from Cameron but this could be one of his smartest moves yet; other than Labour bringing back Brown to contest the next general election, I can see no other way for Cameron to get a majoity in the next election other than by making this attempt to win back the Tory support that has gone to UKIP.

[hungrymark]

It pains me to acknowledge any semblance of competence from Cameron but this could be one of his smartest moves yet

I thought the rest of your post was excellent and I completely agree, but I think this phrase indicates the problem with UK politics at the moment: a lot of people are just not prepared to accept a good idea from somebody who is not 'one of them'. It's like when Snap goes off on one about people saying 'I'm Tory' or 'I'm Labour' or whatever. He's bang on too.

[Fretwired]

Personally speaking, I am in favour of the UK staying the EU as it makes my life easier and better. I do hope that Cameron's speech actually generates a proper discussion in the UK of what exactly the EU is, and that people get to make a decision on their future in relation to it based on a rational and reasoned debate. Sadly, I doubt this will happen because of the power monopolies that exist in the UK media and the fact that the conditions for Cameron's referendum are unlikely to actually happen. It pains me to acknowledge any semblance of competence from Cameron but this could be one of his smartest moves yet; other than Labour bringing back Brown to contest the next general election, I can see no other way for Cameron to get a majoity in the next election other than by making this attempt to win back the Tory support that has gone to UKIP.

Good post.

Like you I have worked for some global companies and have worked all over Europe and the US. The Europeans find our politics odd - I showed a session of PMQs to some Danish colleagues who were shocked. Such things don't happen in Danish politics.

As for Cameron he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Just before Christmas a client invited me to a Christmas lunch which tuned out to be a Tory party fund raiser. A minister was present as was the local MP who was an amiable chap. After the lunch the MP gave a short talk about what the Tories had achieved and were planning to do and how they were working well with the Lib Dems. All credible stuff. He got mild applause. He then invited questions - the first one came from a woman whose accent would have made the Queen sound like Peggy from East Enders. She asked "when will Britain leave the EU" .. the place went nuts. The MP tried in vain but was now on the back foot ... all the questions asked were about the EU and immigration. None about the NHS, jobs, welfare system.

And here is Cameron's problem. These core voters were all over 65 .. the MP was the youngest person there [mid 40s] then I guess it was me [mid 50s] and the rest. These people vote Tory at every election and they want out of Europe. They raise the party funds and run the party machine. Rather than face up to them he's gone for a referendum in the hope of shutting them up for a while - big mistake. Foreign investors will be wary and watch the pound weaken. And why should Europe take the UK seriously if they're not sure we're committed?

Cameron needs to appeal to young voters and show some leadership or his party will be finished.

[hungrymark]

I just don't know enough about the issues at the moment to be able to vote 'yes' or 'no' with any confidence in what I'm doing. I'm aware that the EU is a good thing for us in some respects but not in others, but I get the feeling that a lot of people feel the same way. It seems to be an ideological issue rather than a pragmatic one at the moment. I hope the government make a bit of an effort to try and get people more involved in the debate and clearly explain, or direct us to a reliable source of, the pros and cons so that we can make an informed choice.