Measurements that actually show what is happening with hi-fi cables

[Rocker]

The following .PDF file is posted on the VertexAQ website. It is the results of initial work carried out for VertexAQ and Nordost by an independent company called Acuity Products Ltd. The collaboration came about a few years ago after a joint demo at a UK Hi-Fi Show [by VertexAQ & Nordost]. The purpose of the demo was to show the showgoers the very real audio benefits of proper setup of a hi-fi system. After the show the chat went along the lines of "these differences are so fundamental and obvious that there must be a way to measure them". The services of an independent, non audio, company was deemed essential to establish the credibility of the tests.

Read at your leisure [it is a bit dull in places]

http://www.vertexaq.com/component/do...feb-11?Itemid=

As it stands this research proves little except that the named cables and supports lower the distortion of the music signal. And by implication it demonstrates that measurements of audio products are almost useless unless they are measuring the right thing.

I don't want to start another flame war. We have had enough of those already. But I do appreciate and respect honestly held opinions being aired.

[Rocker]

My original post linked the research paper to the Vertex AQ site. I checked the Nordost site and they too have the research paper and here is the link to their site.

http://www.nordost.com/default/downl...easurement.pdf

Unsurprisingly it is identical to the Vertex AQ link but the emphasis is mostly on the Nordost input. To be fair they do acknowledge the products of Vertex AQ.

It is interesting that two major companies, who most would see as rivals, got together to try to devise a system of measuring what people are hearing. Nordost is a very large player in the hi-fi cables and supports business, Vertex AQ is the smaller partner in this partenership but critical as the Nordost and Vertex AQ products often get used together in real world [domestic] hi-fi systems. Nordost cables are known for their 'speed'. A lower price range Nordost cabled system emphasises the leading edge of notes, the more costly Nordost cables present the sound in a very balanced way. Vertex AQ approach things slightly differently, they concentrate on removing vibrations from the components of a hi-fi system and their cables are designed to block vibrations from one component getting into the next component in the chain. Both systems work. If I had the money, I would like to hear a few Vertex AQ supports and cables in my system. Serious money indeed, but once tried in your system, there is no going back.

[Rocker]

The possibilites of this research are endless IMHO. F1 motor racing is an obvious client. None of the engineers actually look at the race these days, they are watching their computer screens. There is a flood of information sent to the garage from the racing car. The more accurate that information, the better the decisions the engineers can make.

Medicine. Aircraft. And lots of other possibilities. When engineers can be sure that the cables linking their modules are not causing excessive distortions, this has to be a very good thing. Very probably those same engineers never thought that the connecting cables might cause a problem. USB is USB. Right? From the published reports, this research is only at the starting gate. Audio is a very small market for such a specialist product. But imagine if a group of engineers in one of the major TV manufacturing plants read this report. If the thought occurred to them that they might be able to improve the TV picture by improving the cables connected to it, their bonuses would probably be sky high.

The last piece is pure speculation on my part but anything is possible. Remember the story that when the telephone was first demonstrated, somebody [very far sighted IMHO] said that he could forsee one of these devices [a phone] in every city. When research like [about how cables can affect a music signal] this blows old prejudices completely out of the water, it is time to think big. Or at least start thinking differently.

[ICBM]

Reading through that it sounds like they changed all the cables at once - in which case a difference should be expected. Interconnects make a real and provable difference to the sound.

Not very scientific though - they should have tested the different types of cables separately.

I also have to say the credibility went down a bit when they described power cables as "power chords" (p16) and swapping cables as "treatment" (p17). OK, maybe the first is a typo (but anything purporting to be serious research should be proof-read) and the second is pure nonsense. You don't "treat" anything by using a different cable.

I remain sceptical about speaker and power cables. Forget the measurements - if a simple properly conducted blind test can show there's an audible difference, I'll believe it.

[stickyfiddle]

The general concept of the test is sound. But there are several problems with the method .I notice they were comparing the output of a CD player with 2 different cables. But they didn't mention repeating the test, in order to see whether the CD player was even outputting the same signal each time with nothing changed. Without doing that you can't draw any conclusions. And it's that lack of basic scientific method that makes me dubious about any other statements made by these guys

[Rocker]

Fair points guys. But as I read it, this paper is only the 'starter'. The testers are not audiophiles as far as I can tell. They may as well be dealing with a Satnav as a CD Player. I expect they tested everything individually, they repeated the test as their results indicated a 50% reduction in distortion.

I am in bed and very sick at the moment. My iPad provided some amusement hence the discovery of the files on the Vertex AQ and Nordost sites. Their results indicate that it is possible to measure the significant differences in sound quality some cables 'bring' to the party. As I suggested in another post, the imlications go way beyond the rather narrow confines of audio. Up to now people have assumed that what goes in one end of a cable comes out the other end unchanged. The Acuity research clearly states that this is not always so.

[monquixote]

This work is balls for two reasons

Firstly it's not remotely scientific. They set out with the objective of finding the results they wanted. That's psudoscience not science.

Secondly if you want to check how a piece of audio equipment works you can hook it up to one of these: http://www.prismsound.com/test_measure/test_home.php which will tell you all you ever need and more. It's the kind of tool that reputable companies who make audio bits use all the time.
I have one in my lab at work. You don't need to arse about making a dubious test rig to prove your point.

[ICBM]

Fair points guys. But as I read it, this paper is only the 'starter'. The testers are not audiophiles as far as I can tell.

They definitely are - you can tell from the type of language, including the 'treatment' idea.

I expect they tested everything individually, they repeated the test as their results indicated a 50% reduction in distortion.

...

Their results indicate that it is possible to measure the significant differences in sound quality some cables 'bring' to the party.

As far as I can read it, it seems that they changed all the cables at once - there's no claim or data to show otherwise, anyway - which if it includes signal cables, means that differences will definitely be measurable, but that it will obscure any possible tiny effect from the speaker cables... which seems a bit silly if you're trying to find out or prove that cables make a difference. There's also no evidence of doing control tests.

As I suggested in another post, the imlications go way beyond the rather narrow confines of audio. Up to now people have assumed that what goes in one end of a cable comes out the other end unchanged. The Acuity research clearly states that this is not always so.

I've never assumed that or thought it was so.

But it's important to differentiate between the different types/applications of cables. I do understand something of the physics behind what mechanisms cause the changes, and hence why they are real (both measurable and easily demonstrable) for signal cables, real (measurable, with precise enough equipment) but inaudible over real-world distances for speaker cables, and almost certainly not real for power cables (assuming at least adequate gauge).

It's also really easy to set up comparison tests to show these things, without having to resort to overcomplex analysis that hasn't been done correctly, and which seems to be be set up to 'prove' the point that the writers want to.

I have actually done quite a few of them. It's not hard, with a little ingenuity and if you're honest with yourself about what you can hear and what you can't.

Cables *do* make a difference. But only some of them.

[Sporky_McGuffin]

Very probably those same engineers never thought that the connecting cables might cause a problem.

You honestly think that F1 telemetrics engineers have never, ever, given even the slightest thought to the kit they use? That's not just patently nonsense - it's verging on libel and defamation.

imagine if a group of engineers in one of the major TV manufacturing plants read this report. If the thought occurred to them that they might be able to improve the TV picture by improving the cables connected to it, their bonuses would probably be sky high.

Again - you seem to think that the major TV manufacturers employ gibbering simpletons who have no understanding whatsoever of what they're doing - and again this is clearly nonsense and insulting to well qualified and highly experienced people.

this blows old prejudices completely out of the water

No; it just reinforces all of your prejudices - namely that you believe that all design engineers are utterly incompetent and unthinking, but that all cable manufacturers have only your best interests at heart (not their profit margins, oh no). You ignore the massive weight of evidence to the contrary. Dozens of well controlled studies show that speaker cables do not affect the sound - and these are studies that weren't funded by cable manufacturers (unlike the link you posted).

What always stands out to me in your posts is that you completely reject all psychoacoustic effects. Some time back I posted a link to a series of auditory illusions (I've done it a few times) showing that your brain can and does fill in "gaps" and makes you hear things that are provably not there - the false fundamental is the most obvious.

[daveyh]

It is interesting that two major companies, who most would see as rivals,

Sooo ..... two companies with a vested, mutual interest get together to produce some 'research' that supports their vested, mutual interest?

got together to try to devise a system of measuring what people are hearing.

Did they also get together to devise a system of measuring peoples ears?