Confusion With Major Pentatonic?

[BlindLemonAde]

I'm a simple man, so here's an (over?) simplified answer...

Consider a 12-bar blues in A Major, ie A, D and E chords. These chords all come from the key of A Major, so you could use the A Major pentatonic to solo over them. However, "Blues" is a mix of major and minor tonalities, so you can get away with using the A Minor pentatonic, because over the years our ears have become accustomed to it, and blues licks blur the differences between the two.

Now consider a 12-bar in A Minor, ie Am, Dm and Em chords. These chords all come from the key of A Minor, so the Am Pentatonic will fit perfectly. Now, you might argue that Am is the same as C Major, but... the "A-minor-ness" of the chords keeps pulling our ears back to Am.

Now we'll play a Country song in C major, with the chords C, F and G. These chords are from the key of C Major, so the C Major pentatonic will work fine. But, isn't C Major penta the same notes as Am penta? Why, yes it is, but... the "C-major-ness" of the chords pulls our ears back to C major.

So, we're using the same scale (C maj / Am penta) with a different backing. When we solo using these scales, we must emphasise different notes in the scale, to get it to fit over the chords. This is why you can't play your minor blues licks over a country song - the licks emphasise the "wrong" notes.

I liken it to interior decorating - the chords are the background, like the colour you paint your walls. The notes of the scale are the items you place in the room - cushions, curtains, ornaments, pictures, in colours to complement the walls. If you change the colour of your walls, you have to change the colours of the items in the room.

So, don't play the blues in a pink room - it just doesn't work!

(Other scales are available, but that's verging on jazz...)

[erictheweary]

I'm a simple man, so here's an (over?) simplified answer...

Consider a 12-bar blues in A Major, ie A, D and E chords. These chords all come from the key of A Major, so you could use the A Major pentatonic to solo over them. However, "Blues" is a mix of major and minor tonalities, so you can get away with using the A Minor pentatonic, because over the years our ears have become accustomed to it, and blues licks blur the differences between the two.

Now consider a 12-bar in A Minor, ie Am, Dm and Em chords. These chords all come from the key of A Minor, so the Am Pentatonic will fit perfectly. Now, you might argue that Am is the same as C Major, but... the "A-minor-ness" of the chords keeps pulling our ears back to Am.

Now we'll play a Country song in C major, with the chords C, F and G. These chords are from the key of C Major, so the C Major pentatonic will work fine. But, isn't C Major penta the same notes as Am penta? Why, yes it is, but... the "C-major-ness" of the chords pulls our ears back to C major.

So, we're using the same scale (C maj / Am penta) with a different backing. When we solo using these scales, we must emphasise different notes in the scale, to get it to fit over the chords. This is why you can't play your minor blues licks over a country song - the licks emphasise the "wrong" notes.

I liken it to interior decorating - the chords are the background, like the colour you paint your walls. The notes of the scale are the items you place in the room - cushions, curtains, ornaments, pictures, in colours to complement the walls. If you change the colour of your walls, you have to change the colours of the items in the room.

So, don't play the blues in a pink room - it just doesn't work!

(Other scales are available, but that's verging on jazz...)

Somewhat mixing this up in my head with that tv programme last night about selling curtains.

The major/minor thing is big in blues.Bending/sliding/hammering/moving between the minor and major thirds being very characteristic of what we think of as blues. Indeed, one of the reasons why blues and the guitar are so linked is that you can play between the two and find tones that are neither one or the other - can't do that on a piano.

A lot of blues soloing also brings in those notes from outside either pentatonic, even if just as passing notes. The 'blues scale' offers up the flattened fifth over and above the minor pentatonic. Mike Bloomfied ( amongst others) was quite happy to start solos on this, T Bone Walker scattered 9ths all over the shop and BB King would add a 6th in there as well. One of the few things I ever learned note for note was a Philip Walker intro where the bend is from the dominant 7th up to the octave but hovering around the major 7th. A lot of this stuff does sound slightly wrong or 'tense' but part of playing blues is about tension and resolution. Matter of taste how long you can keep things tense before resolving.

Finally, can I mention the harmonica? Nothing more bluesy than a blues harp/harmonica surely? Assuming you are cross harping on a diatonic harmonica ( ie the standard way of playing the blues on one) then you are playing the mixolidian mode rather than a pentatonic.Also an instrument that does well for bending notes and finding those inbetween positions but keeping that bluesy sound/feel without ( usually) going to the minor pentatonic.

[Bellycaster]

Hey thanks guys, some great responses here, much appreciated. I will be looking over this and digesting it not rushing through it, I am sure there will be stuff in here that drops a penny or two.

I am aware of the Major/Minor relative situation, 3 frets lower etc. All I can say is my theory knowledge is like knowing a bit about most things but then moving on to something else that I find interesting, I seem to get distracted and think "Oh, that's cool, I've got to learn that". I really need to retrack and find the "glue" that binds it all together.

I don't know if it helps but, on my slow journey of discovery I started memorising which Minor Pent shapes were embedded into which Major Scale shape.....eg Pos 1(caged)of Min Pent is embedded into Pos5(caged Aeolian) of the Major Scale, 2/1, 3/2, 4/3 5/4 etc. I'm sure that the Major Pent is also embedded into the Major sclae positions, but I expect the corresponding "boxes" may vary to that of the Min Pent/Maj Scale relationship.

I maybe getting bored of playing to backing tracks that stay in the same key.idk. I am now wondering things like, "When/where can I slip in a Dim7 Arpeggio. I understand the "Theory2 of modes on paper, but I think I end up just playing over a scale if I play to a modal backing track.....eg G Mixolydian, I will play passages in C major and still use A min Pent, although I do try to keep around the tonal centre.

I have noticed stuff in other songs too like "Parisienne Walkways" by Gary Moore and "Atlantic Avenue" by AWB, where I will be playing the melody or any melody to gauge the major scale it is based on and there is a note that does not correspond to that major scale. I know that I have the right scale, but a note is slipped into the melody in the song and I'm left wondering what the theory behind that is.

Thanks again for your patience

[matt1973]

Hey thanks guys, some great responses here, much appreciated. I will be looking over this and digesting it not rushing through it, I am sure there will be stuff in here that drops a penny or two.

I am aware of the Major/Minor relative situation, 3 frets lower etc. All I can say is my theory knowledge is like knowing a bit about most things but then moving on to something else that I find interesting, I seem to get distracted and think "Oh, that's cool, I've got to learn that". I really need to retrack and find the "glue" that binds it all together.

I don't know if it helps but, on my slow journey of discovery I started memorising which Minor Pent shapes were embedded into which Major Scale shape.....eg Pos 1(caged)of Min Pent is embedded into Pos5(caged Aeolian) of the Major Scale, 2/1, 3/2, 4/3 5/4 etc. I'm sure that the Major Pent is also embedded into the Major sclae positions, but I expect the corresponding "boxes" may vary to that of the Min Pent/Maj Scale relationship.

I maybe getting bored of playing to backing tracks that stay in the same key.idk. I am now wondering things like, "When/where can I slip in a Dim7 Arpeggio. I understand the "Theory2 of modes on paper, but I think I end up just playing over a scale if I play to a modal backing track.....eg G Mixolydian, I will play passages in C major and still use A min Pent, although I do try to keep around the tonal centre.

I have noticed stuff in other songs too like "Parisienne Walkways" by Gary Moore and "Atlantic Avenue" by AWB, where I will be playing the melody or any melody to gauge the major scale it is based on and there is a note that does not correspond to that major scale. I know that I have the right scale, but a note is slipped into the melody in the song and I'm left wondering what the theory behind that is.

Thanks again for your patience

There's been some interesting responses on this. Having given it a little thought, if you're looking for an introduction to the Major Pent scale, I would suggest the following:

Get yourself a major blues backing track in A

Use the following one-octave major pent shape - this basically BB King by numbers

E -------------- 9 - 12
B ----- 10 - 12 -------
G --11 ----------------

Tip 1
Bend the notes that appear on fret 12 to your hearts content. Bend them a tone, bend them a minor third, experiment!

Tip 2
Anchor the scale on with your middle finger on fret 11 on the G string

Tip 3
Experiment with connecting fret 9-12 (on E string) chromatically ascending and decending

Tip 4
Occasionally hit a high A (fret 17 E-string) and slide down.

This above will give you a very true feel of the melodic value of this scale without overloading you with info and challenging motor skills.

[Bellycaster]

Thanks Matt, I had a go at that, I do get the tonality thing, it's just that I'm that used to playing over a minor backing track. I must be a really miserable person as I love the sound of the melancholy

Could you explain what you meant by "Anchor the scale"?

Cheers

[jalapeno]

Think he means anchor the shape, personally I'd use the Ring finger, but let's not start a war over that !

[Bellycaster]

Think he means anchor the shape, personally I'd use the Ring finger, but let's not start a war over that !

Sorry, it's the word "Anchor" I don't understand what it is to Anchor the shape or anchor the chord. This is how frustrating my knowledge is, some simple things I have never heard of. I probably DO IT but don't know what I am doing. Does it mean like keeping the ring finger on the G and mini barring the B and E and adding the 12 fret E with the pinky?

Some terminology I am not at all familiar with.

Thanks

[alexanderzz]

There's been some interesting responses on this. Having given it a little thought, if you're looking for an introduction to the Major Pent scale, I would suggest the following:

Get yourself a major blues backing track in A

Use the following one-octave major pent shape - this basically BB King by numbers

E -------------- 9 - 12
B ----- 10 - 12 -------
G --11 ----------------

Tip 1
Bend the notes that appear on fret 12 to your hearts content. Bend them a tone, bend them a minor third, experiment!

Tip 2
Anchor the scale on with your middle finger on fret 11 on the G string

Tip 3
Experiment with connecting fret 9-12 (on E string) chromatically ascending and decending

Tip 4
Occasionally hit a high A (fret 17 E-string) and slide down.

This above will give you a very true feel of the melodic value of this scale without overloading you with info and challenging motor skills.

Move the whole exercise above up three frets and it's a good minor pentatonic position.

Bending the notes that are now on fret 15 by a whole tone will give you the A and E notes which will still fit with the A major chord. (The A will also fit over the D major chord and the E over the E major chord). However there will now be a different feel to the licks in this position due to the C and G notes which are the respectively the flattened 3rd and flattened 7th of the A major scale.

Try making up licks using this shape in both positions. You'll find both work but have quite a different feel.

[Axe_meister]

The big difference with the Major Pentatonic over the minor is you have to think about the note choice a little more when the chords change.
Think of a Typical blues, A7, D7, E7. And you widdle away using the Am Pent.
You chord tones are
A7: A C# E G
D7: D F# A C
E7: E G# B D
The A minor pentatonic is
A C D E G

So if you play the Am pent over the A7 chord it fits as you get the nice flat third over the major 3rd blues sound
Am pent of the D7 chord it fits nicely with no semi tone clashes and you enhance the D7 chord to include the 9th (E)
Over the E7, you do get a bit of a clash with the C against the 5th of the chord (B), but the B in chord is the minor 3rd of the scale so sort of fits.
However if you look at the A Major Pent. the notes are
A B C# E F#
Again it fits perfectly over the A7 chord
But the C# clashes with the D (7th chord with a Maj7 solo note) over the D7
Over the E7 the C# of the scale will clash D of the chord.
So you have to be careful with the Major and know what notes to avoid over which chords.
Or do the Jazz thing and follow the chords.
A Maj Pent over the A7
D Maj Pent over the D7
E Maj Pent over the E7

Overall rule of thumb for easy listening (anything else is just jazz) minor 3rd over major 3rd OK
Maj7 over root also OK.
Anything else you really have to think about what note to play next to resolve out of the tension or
use it as a passing note, i.e. hit a good note hard afterwards to bring you back home.

[JAYJO]

I think he means the point of contact with the fretboard. Like a pivot i think. ie If you were to strum your guitar and your little finger of your strumming hand came into contact with the guitar body (while strumming)to help with positioning,then this point of contact to the guitar would be were you were anchoring your strumming hand. I think it may apply to the fretting hand also.
I have though been wrong before!