Learning Modes - Why?

[Fazer]

the notes major scale:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,etc

all the modes are is starting the exact same sequence on a different note:
dorian - 2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,etc
phrygian - 3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,etc

that is it, it's still the same pattern of notes, of note intervals. just from a different starting point.

[erictheweary]

A basic understanding, like ^, is sometimes a part of the vocabulary when exchanging musical ideas. Seems an odd thing to purposefully ignore even if you never apply the learning.I guess you could say that about other things but the basics of modes is something you can learn in minutes, think through without a guitar in your hand and apply in simple ways on the fretboard.And they do come up - on things like magazine or even youtube tutorials.

I played with a keyboardist who was entirely self taught and had a great ear. Now,for us playing Monkey Man I don't think modes ever came up but as good as he was his lack of music vocabulary was an odd thing, not really understanding what a bar was, what a 7th chord was and so on. His replacement in the band had an equally good ear but also can explain what she is doing as well (actually, is a music teacher so is dumbing things down to my level). Still equally unhelpful at shifting PA gear at the end of a gig mind...

[BobLoblaw]

Here's my take on knowing modes..

Years ago when i was first starting out I remember running scales for hours..I ran all the modes in C major, and G-major for the most part...From this I basically got into my head that since the natural minor for C was A, and for G it was E, I was learning the keys of most rock songs of the day being A minor and E-minor.By default of running the C major scale on end, I learned the G-Mixolydian mode by default.I did learn a few basic pentatonic shapes, and stock cliche pentatonic rock patterns but I focused on the 7 note scale for the most part..

What I eventually found while improvising with my jamming buddies back in the day was that I was playing too many notes., so I kind of evolved my playing back into a pentatonic rock style, but through those hours of running scales, I learned to add certain flavours to the tried and true pentatonic scale by adding in the missing intervals for flavour. Those hours in really helped my playing in that sense.For example, I get a dorian flavour by adding in the f# and B on an A-minor pentonic scale..Adding in or borrowing the major third and flat seventh from the major scale to the major pentatonic gives it a mixolydian flavour. I never use the lydian or locrian myself..I tend to stay with the minor/major pentatonics with dorian or mixolydian even Ionian flavouring..Since I learned the C major key so well, I sometimes use the e-phryigian over an e-minor progression just by default of knowing the c-major key in all positions.
This may be an unorthodox apprach but it seems to work for me..


My downfall however is that I never praticed in all keys..I stuck to c/a-minor or g/e-minor which covers a lot of the rock keys and jamming keys anyways...I can shift up or down the patterns if need be, but I'm real comfortable with those few keys I practiced a lot in


To answer your question, I would say that learning your modes are important. I would suggest learning your modes, but at the same time learn your pentatonic positions and try to underlay them. Weave them together when improvising. I don't know exactly where you are at for level, but this work is well worth it..Like someone stated earlier..Intervals are where it's at..Now I hope I didn't confuse you too much with all this.

[Nik Harrison]

Whether or not learning modes is important is a matter for each individual, but ultimately you won't ever know whether or not you're going to find them useful or valid as part of your guitar playing unless you do learn them!

From an old blog post:

Modes

“The use of a scale through the displacement of its tonal centre to another note within the scale”

The historic use of the word “mode” has referred to different things dependant on times, places, interpretations, and the meaning of the word “mode” has actually changed and evolved throughout the development of what can now be identified as established, modern-day music theory. Historically, they were originally applied to Church (or “sacred”) music and as such can sometimes be found actually pre-fixed with additional adjectives such as “Church Modes”, “Ecclesiastical Modes”, “Plagal modes” and some other names. Throughout history, some of these names have been used to refer to different aspects of a modes usage more than an actual difference in the mode itself.

Currently they are considered as 'the use of a scale through the displacement of its tonal centre to another note within the scale', and this is the way in which I’ve defined them at the beginning of this article. Any seven note scale has seven potential tonal centres. Where each of these notes of a scale can be used in this way, music which utilises this idea is commonly referred to as a “modal”.

Modes only apply to “asymmetric” scales. Symmetrical scales do not have modes because of the manner in which they are obtained and identified. An example of this would be the whole tone scale which can only be displaced once because of the symmetry of the interval pattern which is used to generate it. The whole tone scale interval pattern is simply a succession of tones which completes itself across 6 notes. Because of this symmetry, both of the Whole Tone Scale’s “modes” are invervallically identical and as such, there is no necessity to identify them separately.

Major Scale Modes:

Scale Degree Name Mode

1, Tonic Ionian (Major scale)
2, Supertonic - Dorian
3, Mediant - Phrygian
4, SubDominant - Lydian
5, Dominant - Mixolydian
6, SubMediant - Aeolian (Natural Minor)
7, Leading Note - Locrian

Harmonic Major Scale Modes:

1, Harmonic Major
2, Dorian b5 (“Dorian Diminished”)
3, Phrygian b4
4, Lydian Minor
5, Mixolydian b9 (or b2)
6, (Currently, I’ve not devised a “proper” name for this one – It’s a kind of “strange altered Phrygian/ Locrian hybrid thing”)
7, Locrian b7

Melodic Minor Scale Modes:

In this case, the Melodic Minor Scale that I’ve used is built from a consistent interval pattern (which can be considered as the major scale using minor 3rd instead of major 3rd). This is not the traditional "classical" melodic minor scale which is different in its ascending form from its descending form.

1, Melodic minor
2, Dorian b9 (b2) or (Phrygian with a natural 6th)
3, Lydian Augmented (Lydian #5)
4, Lydian Dominant (Lydian b7) (overtone scale)
5, Mixolydian b6 (also sometimes called the "Hindu scale")
6, Aeolian b5 (or Locrian #2/ Locrian #9)
7, Superlocrian (altered scale)

Harmonic Minor Scale Modes:

1, Harmonic minor
2, Dorian b9 b13 (or b2 b6) or Locrian (with major 6th/ natural 6th
3, Ionian #5 (Ionian augmented) or Major with augmented 5th (not "Harmonic Major")
4, Dorian #11 (or #4)
5, Mixolydian b9 b13 (or b2 b6) “Phrygian Major” (sometimes called “Phrygian Dominant”)
6, Lydian #9 (#2)
7, Superlocrian b7 (Altered Diminished)

I'm not too convinced by "Phrygian Dominant", but I've sometimes seen it labelled as such so I've included it here.

Modes, named with “altered” intervals relative to the major scale (which is the manner in which they are presented here for simplicity in presentation) I'm not 100% keen on. This system of labelling implies too much alteration from a hypothetical “default” position, which isn’t necessarily a clear, accurate, or appropriate reflection of these interval patterns. Once learned, I feel that they are much better understood (from a practical application point of view) on their own merits, without thinking too much in terms of raised or lowered intervals (or sharpened or flattened intervals), relative to a scale which is essential just being used as a reference point, and exclusively for labelling purposes. What causes problems (discussing music theory in this way) is the manner in which truth can actually generate confusion. It's the difference between truth and fact which is the basis of many misconceptions in music theory. Major, harmonic major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales are all built from interval patterns (although the "classical" melodic minor scale introduces a new level of complication, in that it has a different interval pattern in it's descending form from the retrograde of the ascending version, simultaneously compromising any static, reliable, or hard and fast "rules" regarding it's harmonisation). Where these interval patterns (for the respective scales) may be used to build chords on each of these scale tones extending beyond the triad into extensions of the 7th, 9th etc, to describe them all in relativity to the major scale is where a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions about harmony are generated. This is worth being aware of when studying scales, modes, and harmony.

[Viz]

What's the best songs that exemplify each mode then? Eg Lydian - the simpsons. Etc

[Koss59]

The Simpsons is Lydian Dominant, Third Stone from the Sun is Mixolydian so is the Taxman solo and Norwegian Wood.
Samba Pa Ti is a great way to get your head around Dorian.
If I think of any others I'll list them later ( I'm trying to stick to examples that most people know really well so there's no odd tracks here )

[Viz]

Dorian - greensleeves

[octatonic]

Flying in a Blue dream by Joe Satriani is lydian for quite a bit of it.

[Viz]

Ya a classic lydian song :-)

[GAZTOPIA]

the notes major scale:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,etc

all the modes are is starting the exact same sequence on a different note:
dorian - 2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,etc
phrygian - 3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,etc

that is it, it's still the same pattern of notes, of note intervals. just from a different starting point.

Almost...

In reality, the notes of a scale go on repeating infinately in each direction so there is no start or end point. Obviously for the sake of practicality, we split them up into manageble little chunks - but this doesn't quite work with modes. If you're playing over a strong Em chord progression but starting on a G (G A B C D E F# G) then you'll likely still hear the natural minor (E Aolian) because the chords are dictating how that set of notes sounds. This is where people often get confused around modes - its the 'pull' of the underlying chords that give the mode its flavour.