Learning Modes - Why?

[GAZTOPIA]

I should also stress that its important to emphasise certain notes within the mode. For example the #4 in Lydian.

[Viz]

I wouldn't say that - it depends on the music. The Simpsons just has it in passing

[octatonic]

I should also stress that its important to emphasise certain notes within the mode. For example the #4 in Lydian.

Absolutely.
The 'problem' with scales/modes is people assume that each scale degree has equal weight.
I reckon the best way to start is actually from arpeggios rather than scales or modes.
This is how I approach it right now- take a 12 bar blues in A: Chords are A7, D7, E7.

If you start playing an A mixolydian over the A7 chord then you have the following notes:
A B C# D E F# G A.
The notes of the chord A,C#,E,G have more importance over the A7 chord than the BDF# (which we refer to as colour tones).
An approach (not the only one but the best way to start) to this is to play the colour tones on an upbeat and the chord tones on the downbeat.
This is something to practice- a lot.
I'd suggest though that people start playing just the chord tones- there is less to think about when you then need to change to the IV chord.

D7 has the notes DF#AC- over a D7 you could play a D mixolydian: DEF#GABCD.
You can also visualise this as an A Dorian mode on the neck.
Why?
Well if you are playing an A blues then it is sometimes helpful to think about all of the scales/modes and how they relate back to A.
I simply think about 'what notes change'.

A Mixolydian to A Dorian has just one note different.
The C# of A Mixo becomes C in A Dorian.

Also you don't have to stick strictly to playing Mixolydian modes over dominant chords.
If you take an A7 to D7 chord change I really like to accentuate the F# of the D chord as it is a clear chord tone.
Over A the F# is a colour tone so I tend to avoid it, esp on downbeats.
One line I have is actually to play a different mode over the I chord- instead of mixolydian I will play Mixolydian b6 (which is the 5th mode of the melodic minor ABC#DEFGA).

I have a line that is running up the arpeggio, hitting the b6 before then moving to the D7 arpeggio where I accentuate the F# by landing on it at the downbeat.

When you then get to the V chord E7 you can then think of E mixolydian, or A Ionian but again you have to consider what is a chord tone and what is a colour tone.

All of this is quite complicated compared to just starting with the arpeggios.
I don't think it is helpful to try to do all of this from the get go.

Arpeggios are easier to visualise because you just have chord tones- you don't have to think about the weighting of each note as you play them.
Once the chord tones/arpeggio's are firmly in place in the mind it is easier to modify what you are playing to include colour tones.

Absolutely look at modes, they are very useful but IMHO arpeggios are really where it is at when starting to play changes.
Not just for blues, but also for rock and esp jazz.

[Nik Harrison]

The 'problem' with scales/modes is people assume that each scale degree has equal weight.

Who?

If you start playing an A mixolydian over the A7 chord then you have the following notes: A B C# D E F# G A.

The notes of the chord A,C#,E,G have more importance over the A7 chord than the BDF# (which we refer to as colour tones).

Yes, as we look at it from one perspective, but (from an old CGPW blog post):

What scales work over which chords?

When I'm teaching improvisation, one of the most commonly asked questions is “Which scales work over what chords?” I frequently answer this question by pointing out that it depends entirely on what you consider the 'working' to mean?

What is a scale ‘working’ over a chord anyway?

Where this may appear not to answer the question at all and be a thoroughly unhelpful digression into the philosophical implications of perception, it’s actually worth thinking about because the whole idea that certain ‘prescribed’ scales or modes work over certain chords, chord types, or chord sequences is actually rendering music and improvisation a sterile by-product of a prescribed approach, and a institutionalized ‘system’.

Using jazz as an example, there are some people who hate this style of music for whom the whole idea of a scale “working” over a chord or chord sequence (as a player improvises) is as far removed from a good idea as can be! Some may consider a scale ‘working’ over a chord progression to be dull, boring, and most probably the least inspirational music they may be exposed to. While rightfully entitled to their opinion, to what extent is this scale ‘working’ for them? It isn’t, so does the scale ‘work’ with the chord or chord sequence? It depends who is listening, and in the space between the extremes in musical taste (someone who hates jazz, and a jazz lover) the question of whether or not, and if so the extent to which a scale may ‘work’ over a chord, has many, many manifestations of answer, none right nor wrong, none more or less accurate than the previous or last, and the reason the question “Which scales work over what chords?” is ultimately vague, subjective, and with no real definitive answer.

Clearly it’s a good thing to learn which scales work over certain chords in a conventional sense. This starting point is invaluable for the serious and committed student of improvisation, but as I frequently say to my students, the scales, modes, and arpeggios that are most commonly ‘prescribed’ to work over certain chords and sequences don’t actually serve to help you to sound good. They serve to help you avoid sounding bad (which is not the same thing). Who wants to sound good anyway? Doesn’t the aspiring guitarist want to sound ‘great’? Don’t they want to play with their own voice, unrestricted by any technical or musical constraints that may stand in the way of them truly expressing what they really mean? The idea that someone wants to sound ‘good’ seems like one step too close to mediocrity when compared with the actual level that a player may aspire to!

Still want to know which scales work over which chords? You can find all that information on the internet.

Wouldn’t you rather know how to be a great guitarist? To find that out, the only way is to think about what scales ‘working’ over chords means to you, and then asking some better, and more personal questions about it regarding how you really want to sound.

[Goooner1]

It's not true

Why is he asking his teacher what he needs to learn? Just seems strange handing over your brain like that to a teacher. If I was going to a teacher and handing over cash i'd be asking better questions than that. The first that comes to mind is; hey mr teacher what is the dorian mode and how would I utilise it in my playing.

Limbicsystem from planet grumpy.

I don't think he was asking specifically because he wanted to learn it there and then, it was more a general question as it was something that had come up in a conversation with me.

Thanks to everyone that replied, lots of interesting information to try and get my head around, most of it beyond me at the moment, but I'll get there in the end

[musophilr]

what Nik and others have said (where the others are correct), but I'd also add that as a way of getting your fingers to execute anything they might be required to, learning to play modes - not just sequentially up & down but in interval skips - has its uses

[musicegbdf]

Coming back to the question. Why learn modes? You don't need to learn modes , scales , or even to some extent Chords! BUT , learning them can give you a shortcut to making interesting music.
There have been centuries of working these things out so use them.....another BUT , we must not be a slave to them , and that is where most of us (me included) go a little wrong and get stale. I have improvised using the "right" notes , but it sounded rubbish.
To qoute Justin Sandercoe. "If it sounds good , it is good. If it sounds shit , it is shit"

I played for some 25 years (including semi pro) without being aware of scales or modes (I knew them without knowing I knew them).
I just learnt how to play songs as my part in the band by ear and from that got to know which frets to go to. Years later when I started playing again I got some books and found out about the Pentatonic scale , and thought ,...but that's what I 've been using for years !!!

I'm better educated now. Am I a better player ? Not sure about that. I often find I play in a stifled way worrying about where to go next on the change. Back in the day , I didn't care (bold youth) . Though I would say I am starting to break out of the pentatonic box more often and mixing up Mixolydian/Dorian / and natural minor. Though I have to say I still have some licks that I use from my "tricks" bag that sound good , but I don't know why.

So in conclusion , yes the are worth learning , but don't let the "music" suffer.

[frankus]

I'm going to try something different to previous posts - to see if we can change the direction of the posts - which so far are about recommendations of ways. I think we're all different; but that which is most personal is most common - so lets see if there's some shared experiences that can help.

I'm going to write honestly about my past in learning the guitar and I invite everyone to see if there are parts you recognise from your own development.

First thing I learnt was easy chords - what's easy about these chords is the fingering, up by the fret where string tension is high and grooves in the fingers are assured. The chord construction is an enigma (some are inversions some are odd jumbles) as it's all about ease of playing near the nut - no barre chords. So I learnt the outlines/patterns/shapers/silohiettes not how to make chords of my own, nor reading notation as these chords are not conducive to learning notation.

Next I learnt barre chords - I kept using the same wacky shapes. I Still didn't know the notes I was playing nor the fretboard beyond the root note on E and A string.

Then, I learn moveable jazz chords and bits and bobs from tunes and guitarist lessons - I scan the chords to find the root note on which string? Again the chords are more randomly shaped and have roots on the G, B string or D string but they're still moveable and the degrees of scales they comprise is not of interest to me.

I join a band and read an article about pentatonics - again these are moveable patterns, much like chords and the root notes are spelt out make it easy to ignore the rest of the picture. I start to experience the confusion around chord changes in a 12 bar blues... sometimes the pentatonic sounds crap.

Then where? Ah I go to uni and am blown away by a few guitarists, one agrees to teach me and gives me modes to play - the 3 notes per string variety and I look at the modes as patterns - this is the pattern for dorian and this for lydian... and this is it's root. As is the way in jams, I start to encounter issues in chord changes - it occurs to me that I need to know how to change from one mode with a root note to another mode with a different root note and totally confuse myself.

5 year break - as I blame guitar or getting booted out of uni.

learn a variety of exotic scales as patterns beginning to nod towards the degrees of the scale being important.

Start looking at arpeggios not all the inversions, stopping being patterns now becoming notes.

Start learning modes in the relative approach ie. Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 - don't get applications derivative approach.

Get into chord tones and scales/modes start categorising all scales/modes as chord tones from the root.

Start matching chord changes to mode or scale changes - one to one correspondence.

Get into functional/non-functional dominants and chord progressions - start seeing one mode as covering several chords.

Get the Jimmy Bruno thing about there being 12 notes - coincides with reviewing the Wayne Krantz thing and mulling on George Benson's view. It's about hearing this stuff and making sure it sticks.

Did a few years on IGF jazz class - sweated out following the changes in really simple songs - decided theory was a load of shit compared to carrying a tune and keeping time.

Agree with Joe Pass that there are three types of chord only and use that to categorize hearing chords.

Get into Ted Green's chord progressions and realise playing guitar can be more about muscle memory than I previously thought while still being creative. Again the chord shapes are note identified as notes simply sounds.

Read Scott Henderson's book on chord voicings where a chord has many meanings; coincides with reading about Ted Green's comment on Wes Montgomery - "knowing about only 80 chords but knowing every use of them"... start calling chords voicings and paying more attention to any given spelling.

Got into Victor Wooten and was blown away by the concept of grooving first in improvisation, made for a good natural framework for playing ... kinda forgot modes as a non-theoretical exercise.

...

now I'm a crap player - let's get that one out of the way - but do any of those steps resonate with anyone? Anyone got any more?

[barney.]

when i first started it was with a friend we both got guitars probably about 8 or 9...straight away we tried to play in a band with a drummes and bass player that had just started as well....needless to say it wasnt good, more noise than anything, but right from the start it was good cos we learned to listen a bit.....that didnt last long

next step started taking lessons and learned a few simple tunes and chords, pentatonic scale...my understanding parents got me a decent guitar and amp and didnt mind me using it in my bedroom,, i used to put black sabbath mainly but Hendrix Purple , Spirit Steppenwolf,,,ect then turn the amp up and play along to these using the pentatonics i learned at lessons,playing through the singing and all the way through the songs making my solos up...

next i got in another band..this was a bit better...doing Undertones ,sex pistols ,Queen ,Eagles and stuff like that and got a season in a local caravan park....we were about 14 by then....

next i started guitar lessons with a jazz guitar teacher and touched on chord melody playing and Django stuff...but i was really into Brian May and Dave Gilmour at that time ...Dave Gilmour probably still being my favourite guitarist....but i also loved Holdsworth so started getting more into Legato and genral Jazz stuff.....but still loved the blues and Rock.....from that point my playing went in two directions...Blues and Rock and jazz...so i was playing in Rock and \Blues bands but still playing Jazz at home and home recordings hoping that sometime soon these styles would fuse together ..im still waiting.....

quite a while later i started lessons again with a very good teacher and pro player and learned more inversions and more arps...i started woring on modes as well at that time as well although this guy didnt really teach them i done them on my own...still playing rock and blues in the band...in fact in the time from when i was 9 i think iv only not been playing in a band for about 2 years..i got a lot more into blues later on and still love playing it....

iv found in all this though is that iff you work something out for yourself you get a better understanding, recently i have been doing the Jimmy Bruno lessons and now with Tim Miller .....and realised that there isnt a right way and wrong waqy to do anything...just your own way, everybody has valid points and ideasand different ways of doing things .......i concentrate more on the music side of it now and what sounds right in my head and whats musical..ather than what fits cos it says it does in a book kind of approach....in fact when i play now i dont think any theory at all unless im playing over some awkward changes...and that would be just to see the available notes....still never got into the solo guitar style as much as i would have liked to ...i think i am more of a group player cos thats all iv done ....

[clarky]

his teacher told him that they were only useful if you wanted to pass exams.

it's a shame a teacher said this because it is utter shite
the vast majority of contemporary music [rock, pop, funk, soul, dancy trancy, metal, blues, jazz etc] is actually modal even if the guys playing it are not aware..

How true is that? I'm sure there are a few great guitarists out there that no little to no theory
but is it actually important to learn scales and modes and if so, why?

there are lots of folk that play by ear and use modes without realising it..
modes have been right at the core of pop / rock / blues music since before The Beatles [but how many of them that actually knew they were using them? maybe less than you'd think]
Do you need to know this stuff? not really.. not if you have a good ear and sense of harmony..
Will knowing this stuff help? of course.. it'll do no harm to know what things are called and what they sound like
Will this make you a better player? no, playing makes you a better player
Will it make you a better songwriter / solo writer / improviser? Kind of..
think of it this way.. would having more colours make you a better artist? if you're shite it don't matter how many colours you have.. if you are good, you now have more tools with which to express yourself...

Assuming you're not planning to start writing your own stuff or anything and just want to play what's out there. Can you get away without knowing any of that stuff, or is it going to help if you do?

yes you can... you don't need to learn them if you don't want to..
just learn the songs / riffs / solos etc in terms of fingerings... and play them..

if you want to take things further [write / improvise / jam / understand what's going on so you can exploit it at another time your own way] then it won't hurt to add a few extra things in your bag of know-how..