Chord Theory Question

[musophilr]

Isn't there a similar device in Bridge Over Troubled Water?

[erictheweary]

It's not meant to be about being "correct" or not, music theory is really there to describe what is being played and not how to play.

Took me bloody years to realise that!

[bj]

Generally, a chord borrowed from the relative minor will retain its function. So in the key of C major, that F major is a IV chord, and it acts as a pre-dominant, or a dominant preparation, and tends to want to move toward the V chord before resolving back to the I. If we take the F minor from the key of C minor instead, that chord would be a ii chord, which is also a dominant preparation chord. Even though it's the ii from a different key, it still wants to resolve to the V in the key of C major. This means that even though we're changing the IV into a minor chord, it still retains the same function.

I disagree with this (I think!) - In most of the examples above, a IV chord followed by a iv minor chord is then followed by a I chord. If you're right that the IV chord leads you to expect a dominant, then it stands to reason that the iv minor is substituting for that dominant (V chord), as I argued earlier, especially as the iv minor is then followed by a I chord, and the most common cadence ending in a I chord is the V I. So I think the correspondence between II - V - I and IV - iv minor - I is pretty close and certainly enables iv minor to be seen as a potential substitute for a V chord.

[BobLoblaw]

Isn't it interesting that often or not it's the fourth chord in the key of "C"..I see more "F" chords employing this..Having said this, I mentioned the Eagles "Desperado"..Key of G..The fourth chord is a C, and it does the same thing...Neat trick!..The song goes from a G to a G7 , then to the fourth C, to C-minor.

[garybaldy]

Just wondering...I seen this move especially in the Key of "C" major where the 4chord goes from a major to a minor..I seen, especially in blues, where the progression goes from a "F" major to a non diatonic "F" minor...Refer to Desperado by the Eagles, and you'll see the same move where it goes from a "C" major to a "C" minor in the key of G..
David Bowie's space oddity also emplys this where in the chorus the song goes from a "f" major to "F" minor...This method works, but is there a reason or theory to this??..Seems to always be on the "4" chord.

You will notice a chromatic(semitone) moment within the chords ie the A note in the F maj chord moves down to Ab in the Fmin chord and resolves down again to G note in the Cmaj chord.This is naturally pleasing to the ear.In jazz the Fmin is a form of an altered G7.G7 resolves nicely to Cmaj.I would not agree the the F min is some kind of modulation.In classical music a Fmin to C maj ending is known as a plagal cadence-think Amen at the end of a hymn!

[garybaldy]

All that's happened is the song has "modulated" temporarily.
Basically altering to a different key/chord for a bit.

Using a Cmajor scale
C D E F G A B C
take the 1/3/5 notes C/E/G to make a C major chord
the next chord is D minor. D F A. This could be modulated into a D major, be sharpening the F.

Make sense?

No - Its completely off the point and certainly doesnt answer the question

[mattf77]

Playing a minor chord as the 4th chord in a major key.
harmonic major scale

[BobLoblaw]

Well not exactly...More like going from a major then to a minor right after on the fourth chord.
i seen this more in the key of "C" Cmaj. to F major to F-Minor.

[musophilr]

Playing a minor chord as the 4th chord in a major key.
harmonic major scale

I never heard of that one. Have you just invented a new scale?

R 2 3 4 5 b6 7

Harmonies

I maj7
ii m7(b5)
iii m7
iv m/maj 7
V7
VI maj7(#5)
vii dim7

[mattf77]

I get you. Didn't realise you had the major on the 4th then the minor. There's a gazzilion ways to describe it but in context with what comes before or after, the bigger interval than your ear is expecting is what makes it sound more interesting